Love rats from a Tunisian point of view

fainna

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hi,everyone, well, we went to see one direction last night, they were 45 minutes late arriving on the stage and as our limo was waiting for us we had to leave earlier as i phoned the driver and told him the show was late starting and he said we must leave at the agreed time because if we waited until the end of the show it would take us 4 hours to get out of wembley, we missed about 4 songs at towards the end of the show,but we saw harry!!! he is so gorgeous!!!! in the limo on the way there and back the driver played one direction songs and had a bottle of champagne for us!!!! ooh ooh HARRY!!!!
 

fainna

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going to watch made in chelsea in a minute, my cousin binky is having a bad time with a rat too!!!!
 

Ariel

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My child is half Tunisian and there is one other black child in her class who, by my daughter's description was her friend with the green ribbon and Cinderella bag. Children don't see skin colour or, if they do, it is largely irrelevant.

The children had to paint themselves, and when my daughter painted herself pink, the teacher corrected her that she should use light brown paint. All the children then start talking about whether they are 'pink', 'light brown' or 'dark brown', and the 'light brown' and 'dark brown' are obviously the minority and become aware that they are different and not like the majority of their friends. I'm sure the teacher was well-meaning (probably trying to be oh-so politically correct by acknowledging a child's racial background) but the point is that it is adults who differentiate on the basis of skin colour. Children will be 'friends' with other children on the basis of how they behave with them, whether they enjoy their company, whether they are kind to them etc. My point is that we have a lot to learn from children.

Our main criticism by Tunisians who enter this site is that we should not judge a whole nation of people by the actions of a minority (i.e the rats), I think that most of us don't because we know better than to think that there are no good Tunisians and, in fact, we would judge each person by his or her own merit. Most of us do not know the skin colour of anybody we converse with on here - so we are largely colour-blind, and judging people by their contributions. Why should that change if we saw a photo of them?

I am conscious that some of this discussion is both offensive and upsetting at different degrees for different people, and not even necessarily because of their own skin colour. I guess I personally am saddened that anyone would judge any other human being on any other basis than something rooted in behaviour and, in particular, their behaviour toward another human being - but those kinds of attitudes and suppositions can be unlearned or, at least, a person can be enlightened as to their own prejudices (even the best of us are guilty of unconscious prejudices - we just have to be in a certain situation for them to come to light). So, in short, I'm sorry for any personal upset that this thread has caused - but I think it stands as a thread we can all learn something from - whether it be about others or ourselves.

Oh, and I told my daughter to paint herself green the next time ;)
 

Etoyoc

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I think i get what you're saying that its likely gone a bit to far with what we can and cant say
Well that is one thing, but my real fear is that this is just the beginning, just the tip of the iceberg that will emerge. And the danger is that "control" comes on the back of a "good thing" that nobody would deny. It will come as in "we all want this good thing, so we are all willing to give up some freedom". And a bit of freedom lost here and a bit there and a bit somewhere else ... will leave us with ...?
 

MissMetal

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Well that is one thing, but my real fear is that this is just the beginning, just the tip of the iceberg that will emerge. And the danger is that "control" comes on the back of a "good thing" that nobody would deny. It will come as in "we all want this good thing, so we are all willing to give up some freedom". And a bit of freedom lost here and a bit there and a bit somewhere else ... will leave us with ...?
Ya, but it's like as women, we're still fighting for equality. Despite what the law says, we're still not equal when it comes to jobs and pay rises. We've not had our rights for that long, in the greater scheme of things it's still rather new. The battle is not over. However thru continuous education, we will one day get to the point where people are saying, wow remember when women were discriminated against....I can't believe society was like that. Kinda like how we might say, how on earth did people survive without a fridge or microwave. We need more generations to pass and as far as I'm concerned if we reach a society where colour is no longer an obstacle, then having to go through some loss of freedom of vocalizing my dislike for a race group is justified. Because I can only use myself as an example in that if I was on the receiving end of a racist comment or prejudice comment because of my skin or sex I would most certainly feel upset and hurt.

Is the race card pulled today unnecessarily, yes in some cases it is, but again minority struggle for equality is not that old, it still hurts. We should not have to keep paying for the sins for a lack of a better word for our ancestors but I or we can certainly be respectful and conscious of the fact and avoid sayings that are offensive.
 

Ariel

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Absolutely - children notice skin colour in the same way they notice eye colour, hair colour, choice of clothing etc. They are inquisitive and interested to know why (alongside everything else around them that they want to understand about the world). It is adults that complicate matters! In my example, I objected to a teacher telling my daughter what colour she should paint herself - irrespective of the teacher's perception of her skin colour, my daughter painting herself pink should not have been corrected - it's about her self-perception. Some of this stems from political-correctness taken to the extreme I believe and, I agree with your sentiments about language Etoyoc, such that some people in the UK (schools again) are so stupid as to try and avoid the descriptor 'black' or 'brown' for anything (e.g. children not being able to remark that a person has brown skin or to sing the nursery rhyme baa baa black sheep - which is about just that, a black sheep). Racism, to me, is about attaching some kind of value judgement on a person or persons based on their race, it is not simply about noticing difference in appearance - young children are not racist, they might notice differences between themselves and their friends (of all kinds - not just skin colour) but any attitudes attached to this are usually the product of socialisation (by adults). Not acknowledging difference and discussing this openly with children when they ask us can do more harm than good and, incidentally, is the same when they notice disability. Better that we explain that everyone is different but, essentially, the same than to embellish explanations with our own value judgements. To go back to the original posts that caused offence it's quite obvious that those opinions are a product of the society they came from (to the point where the posters are genuinely perplexed about why there has been such a response - they just don't get it).
 

the nutty professor

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Really interesting thread which is asking us to open our minds.
racism or affirmative action prevails in all walks of lie.

in my single, maiden name state i was under the radar at work
with my new foreign (though not obviously arabic name) i found myself on the equalities and diversities committee, race and religion sub group at work!
 

WildCat

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When moved to a new school, my kid was asked to fill out a form that the school districts use to assess diversity. In this form he was asked about his race; he checked "African American" and "White": His reasoning is "I'm white and I have African origins, duh!" we found his choice amusing and told him he can pick whichever answer he wants!
 

simple

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When moved to a new school, my kid was asked to fill out a form that the school districts use to assess diversity. In this form he was asked about his race; he checked "African American" and "White": His reasoning is "I'm white and I have African origins, duh!" we found his choice amusing and told him he can pick whichever answer he wants!
I always tick "OTHER" when asked for nationality ,,,They have a list of all nationalities and right at the bottom ,,you have the option other ?????Prehaps thats just suitable for Aliens avatar ..
 

WildCat

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I always tick "OTHER" when asked for nationality ,,,They have a list of all nationalities and right at the bottom ,,you have the option other ?????Prehaps thats just suitable for Aliens avatar ..

I think in every form that asks about race there is "other" or "choose not to disclose"
 

simple

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I think in every form that asks about race there is "other" or "choose not to disclose"
Can you be another race ,other than human ...Maybe we have Martians on earth ,,but chose not to disclose ...
 

Alien

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Alien can answer this, what would she do? :rolleyes::D

I'm surprised that it exist even one form which asks about somebody's race. As far as I have known it's forbidden in Europe and in USA too to ask about somebody's race, exactly because of the possibility of discrimination. For example one of my friends told me that as far as he knew in UK it's also forbidden that an employer ask for candidates to attach a photo next to their CVs when they apply for a job. Because of discrimination. To be impossible to make the first selection because of somebody's race.... (I don't know if it's true or not, you know it better...:))
Although I know sometimes I also ask stupid questions,...:oops: I don't like stupid questions if those are on an official form. If I had to fill in a form about my race I would be very angry, - as everyone I think, - so I think it's a stupid question. And usually for stupid questions I give stupid answers.....:rolleyes:
Once upon a time I had to fill in a form on what it was written that anonymity was guaranteed. And there was also a question on there about my name. Absolutely stupid!!! - I thought! My answer was: Bugs Bunny ;)
1385670-bugs_bunny.jpg
 

Etoyoc

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Well, in Germany, you can at least put "religion is not being disclosed" into the official registration papers, so in all official matters, you are considered to have "no religion". I usually iterate through all kinds of religion when someone asks me about it. Same with status of employment, btw. One day I am out of work, next day a manager and on the third someone with some unusual job type (like "Sarkophag" = Flesh eater, "Germinist" = studying Bakteria). Combined with changing email addresses, telephone numbers and phones (and things I am not at liberty to disclose here), the Powers To Be must have a heck of fun with me. :)
 

mezoo

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My wife is Tunisian.
I'll do till my last breath (or till she fires me :) )
I know a lot of Tunisians who are living with their western partner till the last breath too.
You will never stop people from love and going over problems and cultural barriers to live together forever.
Greetings from the sunny Florida
mine too, me too, me too, that's true :)
and yes, greetings from sunny florida. :D
 

BrownGirl

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I'm surprised that it exist even one form which asks about somebody's race. As far as I have known it's forbidden in Europe and in USA too to ask about somebody's race, exactly because of the possibility of discrimination. For example one of my friends told me that as far as he knew in UK it's also forbidden that an employer ask for candidates to attach a photo next to their CVs when they apply for a job. Because of discrimination. To be impossible to make the first selection because of somebody's race.... (I don't know if it's true or not, you know it better...:))
Although I know sometimes I also ask stupid questions,...:oops: I don't like stupid questions if those are on an official form. If I had to fill in a form about my race I would be very angry, - as everyone I think, - so I think it's a stupid question. And usually for stupid questions I give stupid answers.....:rolleyes:
Once upon a time I had to fill in a form on what it was written that anonymity was guaranteed. And there was also a question on there about my name. Absolutely stupid!!! - I thought! My answer was: Bugs Bunny ;)
View attachment 2371

In Northern Ireland it is the law that employers gather information on the religious breakdown of their employees and anyone who applies for a job. Interviewers are not allowed to see this information or the name of he school you attended because this is used to determine your religious background if you select "other" on the form. So even though I am an athiest, because I went to a school that would be considered "Protestant", I am Protestant in the statistics.
The reason for employers making people fill out a form is to prevent discrimination, jobs for the boys ;) - if you are an employer in an area that is say, predominantly Asian and 90% of your workforce is White European, questions would be asked ;)
 

the nutty professor

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i have just applied and been interviewd for a job in my organisation and have also shortlisted as an interviewer this week.
the appliation forms have a separate section for what they call protected characteristics info such as age, gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, pregnanacy, gender reassignment etc which is seen by the HR section only, not the shortlisters/interview panel. cvs cannot be submitted, only the official application form

bizarrely though if any of the PC boxes are ticked you must interview the candidate, even if they don't meet the selection criteria!!!
 

Alien

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i have just applied and been interviewd for a job in my organisation and have also shortlisted as an interviewer this week.
the appliation forms have a separate section for what they call protected characteristics info such as age, gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, pregnanacy, gender reassignment etc which is seen by the HR section only, not the shortlisters/interview panel. cvs cannot be submitted, only the official application form

bizarrely though if any of the PC boxes are ticked you must interview the candidate, even if they don't meet the selection criteria!!!

They ask about sexual orientation, and gender reassignment too.....!!!:eek: GOD!!!! It's amazing!!!! In our country HR get the CVs, (there's no application forms) make the first selections, and make the interviews, and it's absolutely forbidden to ask about these questions, and it's even forbidden to ask a girl/woman about planning children in the near future. Many years ago, when I applied for a job to an international company the application process was made according to the global company's rules, and I had to fill in an application form too. They asked about 3 personal and 3 professional references. I had to give them 6 well English speaking names and phone numbers, and a psychologist man came from abroad - from the headquarter of that company - and asked all the 6 person about me. One of my friend told me very angrily after the interview with that man that he asked her about my pesonal details too, (if I had boyfriend or husband, if my relationship and sexual life was harmonic or not,...etc.) She was very angry because she was surprised about these questions and of course hesitated about the answers.... Finally I got the job, and it was one of my best workplace,.... but I was also amazed and angry about this application process. Few years later I got the info that an article was written about the company and about this application process in Le Monde, and as far as I know they have changed this application process because of company's reputation.
 

BrownGirl

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They ask about sexual orientation, and gender reassignment too.....!!!:eek: GOD!!!! It's amazing!!!! In our country HR get the CVs, (there's no application forms) make the first selections, and make the interviews, and it's absolutely forbidden to ask about these questions, and it's even forbidden to ask a girl/woman about planning children in the near future. Many years ago, when I applied for a job to an international company the application process was made according to the global company's rules, and I had to fill in an application form too. They asked about 3 personal and 3 professional references. I had to give them 6 well English speaking names and phone numbers, and a psychologist man came from abroad - from the headquarter of that company - and asked all the 6 person about me. One of my friend told me very angrily after the interview with that man that he asked her about my pesonal details too, (if I had boyfriend or husband, if my relationship and sexual life was harmonic or not,...etc.) She was very angry because she was surprised about these questions and of course hesitated about the answers.... Finally I got the job, and it was one of my best workplace,.... but I was also amazed and angry about this application process. Few years later I got the info that an article was written about the company and about this application process in Le Monde, and as far as I know they have changed this application process because of company's reputation.

Shocking!!
It is forbidden anywhere in Europe to ask such questions in an interview - we all covered by the same EU laws on Equal Opportunities and Equal pay which have been in place since the late '70s.
 

Alien

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Shocking!!
It is forbidden anywhere in Europe to ask such questions in an interview - we all covered by the same EU laws on Equal Opportunities and Equal pay which have been in place since the late '70s.

Yes, and at first the company's answer to the article was that it was not must to work at their company, it was up to the candidates if they wanted to work there or not. They said, but if they wanted to work there they had to participate at this application process..... But few years later they had changed this application process because of company's reputation.
 

marilyna

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They ask about sexual orientation, and gender reassignment too.....!!!:eek: GOD!!!! It's amazing!!!! In our country HR get the CVs, (there's no application forms) make the first selections, and make the interviews, and it's absolutely forbidden to ask about these questions, and it's even forbidden to ask a girl/woman about planning children in the near future. Many years ago, when I applied for a job to an international company the application process was made according to the global company's rules, and I had to fill in an application form too. They asked about 3 personal and 3 professional references. I had to give them 6 well English speaking names and phone numbers, and a psychologist man came from abroad - from the headquarter of that company - and asked all the 6 person about me. One of my friend told me very angrily after the interview with that man that he asked her about my pesonal details too, (if I had boyfriend or husband, if my relationship and sexual life was harmonic or not,...etc.) She was very angry because she was surprised about these questions and of course hesitated about the answers.... Finally I got the job, and it was one of my best workplace,.... but I was also amazed and angry about this application process. Few years later I got the info that an article was written about the company and about this application process in Le Monde, and as far as I know they have changed this application process because of company's reputation.
As Browngirl said if anyone tried asking those questions about your relationship and sexual life, they would be heading to the courts.
 
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