Was the revolution lost in Tunisia and Egypt?

Bergo

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Was the revolution lost in Tunisia and Egypt?
As state censorship threatens freedom of expression, we ask if new leaders have adopted the old practices of oppression.
Inside Story : 05 Sep 2012 11:18
First it was the media, now it is the artists.
Censorship in the birthplace of the so-called Arab Spring - Tunisia - is back.
The government has already been accused of clamping down on reporters. And now, two Tunisian artists have been charged. Their crime: creating sculptures that the authorities say are harmful to public order and good morals.
"What has been happening since Morsi took power is completely different from freedom of speech, something we did not see before. It's on TV, in newspapers, people are insulting the president, telling lies, inciting people, calling for the killing of the president. I don't think this has anything to do with freedom of speech."
- Nader Omran, a representative of Egypt's Freedom and Justice Party
Nadia Jelassi's work is of a veiled woman surrounded by rocks and suggests she is being stoned, while Mohamed Ben Slama's work is of a child with ants streaming from a schoolbag that spelt out "God".
Jelassi, on being questioned by a judge on August 28, said: "I felt like I was in the times of the [Spanish] Inquisition. The investigative judge asked me about my intentions behind my works that were on exhibit and whether I had intended to provoke with this work."
The works of both artists were exhibited in a show in the town of La Marsa last June. The night the exhibition ended, protesters set fire to police stations, courts and other buildings. One person was killed and dozens injured.
Jelassi and Ben Slama face up to five years in prison if convicted.
On Monday, Human Rights Watch called on the Tunisian authorities to drop the charges against the two sculptors for their art works, adding that the "criminal prosecutions of artists for works of art that do not incite violence or discrimination violate the right to freedom of expression".
The group said that "repressive laws" created under Tunisia's fallen dictator are still being used to "silence those who dissent or think differently".
"Before January 14 [2011] we were fighting against censorship, now the problem is that we don't have independent justice because the executive power is dominating the judiciary…. The problem in Tunisia is not about Islam. It is about the independence of [the judiciary]."
- Lilia Weslaty, a journalist
There are other cases in Tunisia that have also raised questions over freedom of expression.
Meanwhile in Egypt, two journalists are facing trial on charges of insulting Mohamed Morsi, the Egyptian president.
The trials, the first since Morsi took power in June, prompted accusations by Egyptian pro-democracy activists that the Muslim Brotherhood is seeking to stifle freedom of expression.
Over the summer, the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists documented a series of attacks on Egyptian media. They include a newspaper being taken over, censorship of several others, and a physical assault on three journalists.
On this episode of Inside Story we ask: Is freedom of expression under threat in so-called Arab Spring countries?
Joining presenter Jane Dutton for the discussion are guests: Eric Goldstein, the deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East and North Africa division and an expert on the Maghreb region; Lilia Weslaty, a journalist and chief associate of Nawaat.org; and Nader Omran, a representative of the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.
"The real danger [in Egypt] is that the laws that [Hosni] Mubarak used to put journalists in prison and to control the media are still there, and as long as those laws are there no matter who's in power they're going to use these laws, and that's what we're seeing happening now."
Eric Goldstein, an expert on the Maghreb region
CURBING FREEDOMS IN EGYPT AND TUNISIA:
  • Tunisia – in March two bloggers were sentenced to seven-and-a-half years in jail for publishing writings perceived as offensive to Islam. More recently, a satirical puppet show was taken off the air, a move journalists said was another attempt at government censorship.
  • Egypt – in August, Islam Afifi, the editor-in-chief of an independent daily, Al Dostour, faced charges of spreading false news and humiliating the president. His trial is expected to begin later this month. In April, a popular comedian, Adel Imam, was convicted in an Egyptian court of insulting Islam.
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2012/09/20129584729858732.html
 

Laurence

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You can turn it either way you want, in order to stay politically correct, but no islamic country will ever know freedom. It is stupid and unrealistic to believe the contrary. So why wonder about actual repression in Tunisia? Repression starts in the heads.
l
 

Laurence

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As far as Tunisia concerns, one can say now that yes indeed the revolution was lost. Islamists just have nearly all power in their hands now : media, ministeries, schools, gouvernorats, police forces, major part of the army, ...what they don't have just is a matter of time and they will. That is called a dictatorship.
And the poor and needy ones? Even poorer and more in need than before. Nothing left of the beautiful spirit of the revolution...
It will take years, if not decades and/or another revolution, to get the country back on track to freedom and wellfare. Or "how to get a country down in one year"...you can count on islamists to clear this job!
 

NetNiet

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But I'm wondering what is freedom for an Islamic country?
When we say there is still no freedom, is that looking tru non Islam eyes?;)

Isn't it logical that there will be allways a difference between Islam countries and non Islam countries?

Besides the fact what I still keep repeating, it need generations for a country to get democracy and freedom, a country needs generations to recover after a war or a Revolution, so it will take even more when a country is changing both things.
 

Laurence

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You are right NN, in my opinion no muslim country will ever be democratic, as democracy is totally the contrary of islamic theocracy. As long as there is no separation between religion and politics (impossible for a muslim though, as islam is not only a religion but a politic system as well amongst other systems) no country will ever evoluate on the path of enlightment.
So we have to conclude that Tunisians are the victims of their own religion...and don't want to see it (well, some DO see it, but they have to shut up)...
 

NetNiet

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You are right NN, in my opinion no muslim country will ever be democratic, as democracy is totally the contrary of islamic theocracy. As long as there is no separation between religion and politics (impossible for a muslim though, as islam is not only a religion but a politic system as well amongst other systems) no country will ever evoluate on the path of enlightment.
So we have to conclude that Tunisians are the victims of their own religion...and don't want to see it (well, some DO see it, but they have to shut up)...
LOL Laurence I didn't think about it this way, but I understand and know you look at it this way.

I was more thinking that what we see as a democracy, is maybe not what Muslim see as a democracy.
Is one wrong and the other right? I don't know ....I even don't think so.

You write that Tunisians are the victims of their own religion, but I think that 99% of the Tunisians will not agree with you;)

I allways said that I don't think it's possible in an Islamic country to seperate completely politics and religion.
And I think it's logical in an Islamic country that you can't seperate them, we must not forget that every Tunisian is born as a Muslim.
So I think that if there is find a good way in the middle to combine these 2, what is wrong with that?
And yes that is difficult offcourse!

But why do they have to deny their religion when everyone is born as a Muslim, only because we European have the opinion that politics and religion can't go together?
 

Galadriel

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Exactly NN at the end of the day we can only comment but we are not Tunisian therefor our view is ours alone. Pity the West didn`t take this view more often. Let`s face it underdeveloped countries are only seen as an unexplored market or source of materials e.g. lithium in Afghanistan, oil in several countries.
Apart from that, the line, world security is a misnomer, in reality are Muslims ever going to be a world threat ? never ! but they just don`t behave in a way conducive to trade for the purposes of the US. The emphasis will soon make a round turn to China anyways. The US also at present has to support Israel and its needs but chances are the American public have seen enough of this also....be interesting to see in five years time.
 

BrownGirl

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LOL Laurence I didn't think about it this way, but I understand and know you look at it this way.

I was more thinking that what we see as a democracy, is maybe not what Muslim see as a democracy.
Is one wrong and the other right? I don't know ....I even don't think so.

You write that Tunisians are the victims of their own religion, but I think that 99% of the Tunisians will not agree with you;)

I allways said that I don't think it's possible in an Islamic country to seperate completely politics and religion.
And I think it's logical in an Islamic country that you can't seperate them, we must not forget that every Tunisian is born as a Muslim.
So I think that if there is find a good way in the middle to combine these 2, what is wrong with that?
And yes that is difficult offcourse!

But why do they have to deny their religion when everyone is born as a Muslim, only because we European have the opinion that politics and religion can't go together?
I know not many will agree with me on this, but I'm not a great fan of democracy in the Western sense. My reasons, well the older I get the more I think a lot of people are stupid and a democracy is based on stupid people voting in stupid people to make decisions on how I live my life :confused: Maybe it comes from living in Northern Ireland and seeing the type of person that gets voted in as a well paid politician :rolleyes: There's more brains in t.com :D
 

Galadriel

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My sentiments exactly BG but not just in your neck of the woods.......there may be brains in government but of the same persuasion as brains of the benefits crowd, self serving....and devious.......:(
 

Bergo

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I know not many will agree with me on this, but I'm not a great fan of democracy in the Western sense. My reasons, well the older I get the more I think a lot of people are stupid and a democracy is based on stupid people voting in stupid people to make decisions on how I live my life :confused: Maybe it comes from living in Northern Ireland and seeing the type of person that gets voted in as a well paid politician :rolleyes: There's more brains in t.com :D
Never! Never! Never! :D as a famous politician once said ;)
 

NetNiet

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I think that politics is in general are allways selfish thinking for other countries.
Look at the countries with a dictator, other countries didn't do anything to help people who live in those countries, who did and do get killed, raped, tortured etc. etc. in those countries, because they were thinking at oil, money, strategy etc.

Is that politics? It's OK when people get killed, tortured, raped etc. when the interests of oil and money and power etc are more important than the people living in those countries.....?
And those countries are telling Islamic countries that religion and politics has to be seperated....?
 

lion86

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You can turn it either way you want, in order to stay politically correct, but no islamic country will ever know freedom. It is stupid and unrealistic to believe the contrary. So why wonder about actual repression in Tunisia? Repression starts in the heads.
l
well wich country in the world know the freedom?????,:confused:
 

lion86

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You are right NN, in my opinion no muslim country will ever be democratic, as democracy is totally the contrary of islamic theocracy. As long as there is no separation between religion and politics (impossible for a muslim though, as islam is not only a religion but a politic system as well amongst other systems) no country will ever evoluate on the path of enlightment.
So we have to conclude that Tunisians are the victims of their own religion...and don't want to see it (well, some DO see it, but they have to shut up)...
well i dont agree with u,when u said that the democracy its totally the contrary of the islamic theocracy!!! for the muslims,the good muslims,who taking the way of Allah and our Prophet,its the only way of democracy and of justice!!!Tunisia will stay a muslim country even some tunisian idiot dosent want that!!! before with Ben Ali,they said that he didnt let them practice the religion,and now when Ben Ali ran away,and its a muslim government now,they said oh no we will become backward peaple!! because of those idiot,the europien countries they dont respect us and they dont respect our relgion and they control us!!
just i dont understand why when all europien talk about freedom and this USA also,let us live like we want,they see the freedom in a different view then us!!
they interfere in evrythings in this world, they kill all the muslims evyrwhere in this world,why???? because of the democracy!!!! because of their freedom,we hear only about adolescents who die due to alcohol, and yung girls and boys raped by psychopaths!!! and in the end they insult our religion and our prophet who is the most good and correct person in this world,even many they dont agree!!!
 

NetNiet

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well i dont agree with u,when u said that the democracy its totally the contrary of the islamic theocracy!!! for the muslims,the good muslims,who taking the way of Allah and our Prophet,its the only way of democracy and of justice!!!Tunisia will stay a muslim country even some tunisian idiot dosent want that!!! before with Ben Ali,they said that he didnt let them practice the religion,and now when Ben Ali ran away,and its a muslim government now,they said oh no we will become backward peaple!! because of those idiot,the europien countries they dont respect us and they dont respect our relgion and they control us!!
just i dont understand why when all europien talk about freedom and this USA also,let us live like we want,they see the freedom in a different view then us!!
they interfere in evrythings in this world, they kill all the muslims evyrwhere in this world,why???? because of the democracy!!!! because of their freedom,we hear only about adolescents who die due to alcohol, and yung girls and boys raped by psychopaths!!! and in the end they insult our religion and our prophet who is the most good and correct person in this world,even many they dont agree!!!
Hi Lion, I thought you forgot all of us ;)
How are you? :)

What Lion is writing here, is how a lot of Tunisian persons are thinking especially the parts which I made bold in Lions post.

And the majority also added that the USA starts war with countries or is getting there for the reason "to keep the peace" but destroy the total country when they're there doing that, so is that meaning keeping peace?
 

Galadriel

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It`s very difficult to see the ways of the world through others eyes but something that the powers that be don`t, won`t or cannot.
 

Laurence

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"Democracy" comes from the Greek "demos - kratein" which means "the people is ruling"
"Theocracy" comes from the Greek "theos - kratein" which means "god is ruling"
How on earth can the inhabitants of a country rule by secular laws when it's the godly laws that have to be followed? You might say that the people want the godly rules (as for instance the islamic shari'a laws) to be followed BUT that means that there is no democracy because nobody has to vote over these laws, they were edicted once upon a time in backward history and will always remain the same because nobody can alter them.
What makes me really laugh (for the feminine part of the muslims) is that living in the West they eagerly use secular laws to guarantee their rights (for instance inheritance equal rights to men, equal divorce rights) while they should, according to islam, not have those same rights... I call it "sugar islam", which means taking profit from secular laws while expressing to be a muslim...in the same time these women make fun af the misery and second hand citizen situation of their islamic sisters in real muslim countries...

This goes actually also for Tunisian women. They have civil rights (thanks to Bourguiba) that are fair and normal in a secular state...BUT they are not ready to give those up to live under the shari'a laws, as they should do according to islam! So why pretend to be a muslim?
No problem, if things go on the way they do now in Tunisia, soon shari'a will be installed and the Tunisian women will truely know what it is to be living under islamic laws.
 

Galadriel

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We in the UK do live under so called Democratic rule but also knowing that the head of the monarchy at present the Queen acknowledges that this is a country with the Church of England at it`s helm. The two are interlinked, no particular meaning to my life but it is a fact.
 

Galadriel

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The second largest group of Muslims in the world live under democratic rule in India. Akbar the Great one of the most notable of rulers in India favoured secular rule.
 

lion86

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"Democracy" comes from the Greek "demos - kratein" which means "the people is ruling"
"Theocracy" comes from the Greek "theos - kratein" which means "god is ruling"
How on earth can the inhabitants of a country rule by secular laws when it's the godly laws that have to be followed? You might say that the people want the godly rules (as for instance the islamic shari'a laws) to be followed BUT that means that there is no democracy because nobody has to vote over these laws, they were edicted once upon a time in backward history and will always remain the same because nobody can alter them.
What makes me really laugh (for the feminine part of the muslims) is that living in the West they eagerly use secular laws to guarantee their rights (for instance inheritance equal rights to men, equal divorce rights) while they should, according to islam, not have those same rights... I call it "sugar islam", which means taking profit from secular laws while expressing to be a muslim...in the same time these women make fun af the misery and second hand citizen situation of their islamic sisters in real muslim countries...

This goes actually also for Tunisian women. They have civil rights (thanks to Bourguiba) that are fair and normal in a secular state...BUT they are not ready to give those up to live under the shari'a laws, as they should do according to islam! So why pretend to be a muslim?
No problem, if things go on the way they do now in Tunisia, soon shari'a will be installed and the Tunisian women will truely know what it is to be living under islamic laws.
well again laurence,evrybody have his opinion about the democracy,for u its right of the votes???thats for u the democracy???lol,well because of this democracy we live in a jungle,where the strong kill the low and the poor!!!!with this democracy Isreal and the USA control all the world!!! and when we said that we hate the americains,we have right on that,because the majority of them vote for their governement who they kill the muslims all over the world!!! (soo we hate this majority)!!! but why nobody in this world talk about whats going on in Borma whern the muslims get killed,why the USA didnt atttack this country to make peace????????????????????????,!!! well because no oil,nothing on there!!!!
the only thing we want THE MUSLIMS PEAPLE that evrybody leave us alone and let us doing what we want,practice our religion like we want!!! wearing and doing what we want,like we dont interfere what athers do or make!!!!!
 

lion86

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Hi Lion, I thought you forgot all of us ;)
How are you? :)

What Lion is writing here, is how a lot of Tunisian persons are thinking especially the parts which I made bold in Lions post.

And the majority also added that the USA starts war with countries or is getting there for the reason "to keep the peace" but destroy the total country when they're there doing that, so is that meaning keeping peace?
hi NetNiet,im fine thank you,and i didnt forget no one of u :)
i hope u ar ok too ;)
 

Ariel

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Lion, hatred of any other race, creed, country etc. is unnacceptable - whilst I understand your frustrations, hatred just breeds hatred and nothing good will come of it. 'Muslim people' is a misguided term as those who identify themselves as muslim are not a homogenous group (this is very clear in that they don't actually agree with each other's beliefs or behaviours). Equally, the population of America is made up of individuals - so you hate every one of them? and what of Americans who are muslims, into which 'group' do you place them? Are they your enemy or your brothers and sisters? Perhaps if you started looking for similarities rather than difference, embraced tolerance rather than hatred then we might forge a better world for future generations ;)
 

lion86

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Lion, hatred of any other race, creed, country etc. is unnacceptable - whilst I understand your frustrations, hatred just breeds hatred and nothing good will come of it. 'Muslim people' is a misguided term as those who identify themselves as muslim are not a homogenous group (this is very clear in that they don't actually agree with each other's beliefs or behaviours). Equally, the population of America is made up of individuals - so you hate every one of them? and what of Americans who are muslims, into which 'group' do you place them? Are they your enemy or your brothers and sisters? Perhaps if you started looking for similarities rather than difference, embraced tolerance rather than hatred then we might forge a better world for future generations ;)
tunisiasun,when i talked about the americains,i said the majority who choose those government who make wars evrywhere in this world!!!i think its clear like this!! and also i think the USA she didnt suffer in all what happening in the world!!! and also from the first and the second world war,the USA and the americains they didnt suffer,the europien and the arabic countries they get killed and suffer!!! until now all the world suffer because of this country and isreal,and u tell me about tolerance??????? now they want to distroy Iran because of the nuclear!!!!why not Isreal?????? wich tolerance please!!!!!!!!! why only the muslims countries suffer,they get killed!!! why??????? and u tell me tolerance!!!! when a stranger come from europe or USA to any arabic country or muslims!!!they ar welcom, and of corse they think that we ar hypocrite and we use them, but when one of us go to europe or this USA,we ar maybe terrorist and of corse we ar not welcom!!! and dont tell me no, because i live this evryday and many many like me live this evryday and for years!!!!
they insult our prophete,they insult our religion,but we dont do like them!!! BECAUSE WE BELEIVE IN THE 3 RELIGIONS!!! AND WE DONT INSULT ANY MESSENGER OF ALLAH!!!! BECAUSE WE BELEIVE IN ALL OF THEM!!!!
 
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